New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Discussion/questions about software used with your CNC Shark and programming issues

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rungemach
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am
Location: Sarasota, Florida

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by rungemach »

A lot of this discussion may be due to the cost of the upgrade. If the up charge was free to all shark users , NWA would be a hero. They could use it to good advantage in showing prospective new buyers that existing users are "thrown a bone" once in a while in thanks for their support in purchasing a machine. That is a pure business decision.

If the up-charge was 49.00 dollars, I think a lot of folks would just pay for it if they needed the extra functions and understand that updates and upgrades are not always free.

When the price is 149.00, it gets much more attention and questions. I have no idea as to how that amount was determined, but IMHO, it seems a bit high for control panel enhancements. The value has to be in the eye of each potential buyer. For comparison, A full Mach3 license is 175.00 retail and is continually upgraded for free. Conversely, upgrading a Windows pro operating system (XP, to 7, to 8) is over 100.00 each time, upgrading an Apple operating system is much less and needs no activation codes like windows.. All these are business decisions. They all have pro's and con's. I see folks with "Harley Davidson" tattoos, but very few with Microsoft It's all image and marketing.

There also seems to be confusion between the Shark HD 2.0 and the Control Panel 2.0 which seem to be two different things. I think someone who bought a 2.0 generation Shark would be expecting it had a 2.0 generation control panel as well, and that may not be the case. It would be good for NWA to clarify this issue.

I am not sure if all new Sharks will come with control panel 2.0 features activated or not. Or if this will be an upgrade from a "basic version (or feature level)" which will be considered "standard equipment" for all Sharks. Again, some clarification from NWA will help eliminate speculation. It seems that you start with a "basic control panel", and then add a touch plate and activate that feature for 99.00, then add and activate 2.0 enhancements for another 175.00. So, like a lot of other software, you are activating more features of the existing product as you need (and pay for) them.

I hate to add to speculation as to what the future NWA software system may be, so some clarification from NWA would help this issue.

baby15
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:48 pm
Location: lockport ny

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by baby15 »

I thought the 2.0 software would make it faster to run? what does the 2.0 do just some features

GullyFoyle
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:04 pm

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by GullyFoyle »

rungemach,

Your analogy is incorrect. If one chooses to not use MS, one can use Linux for free.
Is there an alternative to using control panel?
In our case we are closer to WDTV, where the updates are free. Addons like NETFLIX require purchase.
I have Synology servers the DSM updates are free and a number of apps. But say I wish to use their surveillance suite, the first camera is free then I need to purchase a license for every other one I install.
The same holds true with gaming systems and virtually every other device out there. Operating software has free updates, addons are pay.
The better business model would have been to update control panel but charge for the added app of virtual zero.
Really, how hard would it be to program that? It isn't like they used the firm running the ACA website.

Glug
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:10 am

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by Glug »

rungemach wrote: When the price is 149.00, it gets much more attention and questions. I have no idea as to how that amount was determined, but IMHO, it seems a bit high for control panel enhancements. The value has to be in the eye of each potential buyer. For comparison, A full Mach3 license is 175.00 retail and is continually upgraded for free.
That's really it, right there. Mach3, in addition to having far more features and expansion capabilities, opens up a vast number of software options. Most packages support Mach3 as a destination. Almost none support "Shark".

I have suggested that a Mach3 compatibility library should be offered for purchase, but have been told that isn't a direction they want to go in.

I want to move away from the Vectric products entirely, but feel trapped in a proprietary system with significant artificial limitations.

rungemach
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am
Location: Sarasota, Florida

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by rungemach »

This thread discusses Mach3 compatibility and NWA's view of it, from a couple of years back.

As a side note, homing switches were promised then, and to my knowledge have not yet been implemented.

http://www.cncsharktalk.com/viewtopic.p ... 362&p=7156

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Consultingwoodworker
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Location: Nashville area
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Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by Consultingwoodworker »

Gully, I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I do not think you have much experience with industrial software! Lol.

Even with VCarve at $700.00 and CAD/CAM systems as low as $150.00, AlphaCam basic is $4k, and the advanced versions are $10-12k. Most "industrial" software of any kind requires that you pay $1500.00 or more per year for support, and new versions have to be purchased.

The technology being developed here for the "mapping" is quite interesting in and of itself, and at $150.00 it is a steal.

That all being said, unless you have a specific project that requires it, why would you need such software? Everyone talks about being able to run toolpaths on boards that are not flat. Why? Why is your board not flat? I either flatten my stock properly BEFORE it gets to the machine, or I can use the Shark to flatten the surface once it is there.

Now, if you want to engrave a shallow curved door or some such, and I can see luthiers using it pretty regularly, then this technology gives you that option, and at $150.00 I'd not think twice about investing the money. But I have been programming and running CNCs for 20+ years! and so far! instrument makers are the only ones who have approached me asking about anything remotely like this sort of work.

On the Shark, the amount of curve that you could actually fit inside the working envelope is pretty shallow.

Ralph

4DThinker
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:00 am

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by 4DThinker »

I'll speak up for how useful the 2.0 controller is. Even though I have strips of HDPE between the t-track sections they still deform somewhat when a project is clamped down across them. Don't clamp across the section you say? We don't unless the part needs clamping down on the sides where across is the only option. Boards that run the length of the table don't leave any room for clamps on the ends. The result is that VCarving across a large area used to vary in depth. Sometime it wasn't that noticable but doing VCarves for inlay it is much more critical. The 2.0 Virtual routing finds even the most subtle variations across the board plane and corrects for them. It will display how much variation it found at each corner and the center touch point. We also used to have parts regularly cut through on one side but not the other. Not a crisis, but something that has gone away now using the virtual routine.

The toolpath graphic display is even more useful IMO. It shows where the router is in relation to the paths it will cut. We uses it to make sure the limits are within the work piece, and to make sure clamps won't be in the way of moves from one path to another. All this before running the file. I had a student who needed to do a nice vcarved pattern on the side of finished assembled odd shaped parts. Alignment was critical. He could jog to critical points along the paths to make sure they were where he wanted them to be. He was able to rotate his part and recenter precisely until confident the paths would cut right where they needed to.

One thing I'd love to see added would be a zoom and pan of the toolpath preview. Moving in for larger detail views would be great. An axio view showing the Z depth of the paths would also be nice to have.

4D

milo30
Posts: 553
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:21 pm

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by milo30 »

Ralph, that has been my belief from the start. Why create software to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. I can make the board flat myself. The touchpad is so large, how accurate can it really get for measuring inconsistancies?

As far as clamping issues, I am lucky in that I do not have to deal with aluminum and was able to beef up the table to help prevent it as well as other options for clamping such as screws.

It seems to have its niche and some people enjoy it. If I had a need 150 wouldn't be a deal breaker. Personally I wish they had worked on a few other things instead.

EdThorne
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:26 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by EdThorne »

This is my personal opinion and I certainly understand why other individuals may rightfully have differing opinions. Presently, this website indicates that there are about 5700 members. Let's assume that half of these are actively using Shark CNCs that could benefit from the use of the SP 2.0 software. I seriously doubt that there are 2850 Shark owners but let's assume that there are that many. Some of these individuals that purchased their Shark CNC units within the past year receive the SP 2.0 software for free. So let's say that there are at least 1000 Shark owners that actually buy the upgrade at $150 each. I bet that we couldn't locate 1000 owners that actually do buy the upgrade. Anyway, let's pretend that NWA gathers in $150,000 from gross sales of these upgrades. This amount of money doesn't pay for very much software development these days. With the cost of salary, taxes, insurances, and overhead, they may be able to pay for one man-year of software engineering. That's a pretty tight budget. I wish to thank Tim Owens and the team at NWA for their efforts developing new products and improving their older products. I wish all of you at NWA and all of the members on this forum the very best for the new year. Happy Holidays!

GullyFoyle
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:04 pm

Re: New zeroing/mapping to cost $$$$$

Post by GullyFoyle »

I have two Makerbots. They run about the same as the Shark.
Makerware and updates are free.
ReplicatorG and Sailfish firmware are free.
Users create other add on software, mostly for free.
Where is everyone's profit there EdThorne?
Your analogy compares to Makerbot rather well. But EVERY Makerware update with nifty new added features is FREE.
The problem is companies think they can squeeze a consumer until they price themselves out of a market.
In today's economic climate, how much niche profit can actually be made?
Will that quest for an extra buck make your product more appealing to consumers?
We are talking a LOT of money in initial investment for the machine, then more money for bits,more money for a router, and more money to make the machine even better/flatter/sturdier whatever.
I could understand if the product were perfect out of the box, but according to the various forums here it isn't. Then again what modern product is perfect?
What is really required is Third party firmware, or another alternative.
All those programs from Vectric, previously mentioned, have free or third party alternatives if one is willing to use them.
But this is a control panel. A necessity. And the hardware seems to be proprietary.No alternative control panel for us.
Profit is fine. Unnecessary profit is hurts the consumer and in the end the producer.
Control panel whatever number should be free. Add ons that everyone does not want or need should be on a pay basis.

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