Virtual Zero Limitation?

[McBuster]

Here is a thought ...

Since VZero uses readings from the four corners, if the panel/board is warped down the middle, VZero will not be able to be of much help.

ie: The Bed is flat/level as a pancake. The piece is clamped down, and readings taken from each corner. They are read +/-0.000 on each spot. Hence, no adjustment. However, the panel has a belly upwards, of 0.030" going right down the middle. VZero knows nothing of this and we still have a problem ...

Correct?

[milo30]

I would assume that it takes a reading from the center also but what exactly would everyone be using warped boards for? f I have to use one I flatten it first before carving or replace it. I don't want people to see my finished work as warped.

[drueth]

I have followed this topic and have one problem with this idea. If you do not fix the source of the problem you will only mask the problem and have an issue some other way. When I leveled my table and replaced the plastic supports that held the deck in place I still had one problem that had me going a little nuts, And that was that the gantry would allow the router to sag as much as .020" depending on if it was close to the side or in the middle of the table. Again this is not a lot, but again depending on what you want to do it will cause a problem. I do not disagree with Next Wave that leveling a scarf board will help, BUT if you clamp a large flat and properly planed board to a scarf board with a dish shape to it you have defeated the fix and still have the problem. If you have a program that can take a reading from all 4 corners of the board and adjust the cut to deal with the problem I still have a issue understanding how that will help if the gantry is not ridged enough to move the bit across the table and not move up and down like a roller coaster.

I will wait to see how this work before I put my money on the table to by it.

[jeb2cav]

If you wanted sub 1/32" accuracy everywhere you cut, you should've spent more than you did when you chose to purchase a Shark - AND ensure you use material that is accurate to that measurement range at every location.

[drueth]

Jeb2cav

I have found the Shark Pro HD can carve to the level that I want to work at , BUT lets be real here. I have issue with why Next Wave did not put the extra $50 bucks in to the HD to make it be what it can be. I am sure most of the user here would have been glad to see it work that good right out of the box. And I am sure the many post on this site dealing with some of the problems cause Next Wave to loose sales. I had to spend about 2 days of my time tring to understand why it did not work as it should. That is my peve and I am sure it is a lot of other user.
Yes I would by a Shark again, But I would not recomend anything less than a Shark Pro HD. The Shark Pro HD is a great place to start. If I could fix mine for about $50 bucks I sure Next Wave could have done it even better in the first place.

[jeb2cav]

I knew it would result in a sharkument - and I don't disagree that it could be better. But the mantra makes it sounds like it just a pile of junk - which I haven't found to be the case. I started out with a ProPlus and while it could've been better, it made a lot of nice stuff - 0.02 off and all. Talking about a system that cost $4k, and isn't cutting within 0.02 everywhere on the table - particularly when the material almost certainly is not that accurate across the plane of the material - is misleading to those thinking about entering into this work space.

I get that it's a pet peeve. I personally don't disagree with your notion of how NWA could improve it with future models. I don't get the angst and anger and mantra - over and over and over - and how NWA is somewhat criminal in their actions - and that the Shark isn't a good system to consider. And I don't get how we're discussing 0.02" as if it is the end of the world that a system is producing this level of error (or accuracy depending on your view). This is something that they eyeball and good square won't consistently detect.

[GullyFoyle]

[quote="jeb2cav" and how NWA is somewhat criminal in their actions[/quote]

I guess it depends on the profit margin and how many corners can be cut to produce a saleable product for the Genpop.
I'm already getting whiffs with the Virtual zero/Control Panel 2.0 pricing.
In the end though some modders will simply tear it down and rebuild better/faster/more accurate for relative pennies, or Bitcoins since we exist in a modern age.

[rungemach]

If you wanted sub 1/32" accuracy everywhere you cut, you should've spent more than you did when you chose to purchase a Shark - AND ensure you use material that is accurate to that measurement range at every location.

At times I feel that some of the issues here lie with "unmet expectations". If the advertising says things like "accuracy of .002" and "Resolution: control to 0.000125 inch", the buyer might get the impression that the machine will do more than it actually does in the real world. When they are disappointed in the actual performance and have to tweak their machines, they are somehow attacking NWA ?

NWA is somewhat criminal in their actions - and that the Shark isn't a good system to consider.

I don't recall hearing any user make that strong of an accusation, only state that they wished certain long standing easilly improved items might get fixed by the factory rather than go on an on without any apparent action. Some may feel that the way to stop the "mantra" is to fix the problem. What I hear are users saying the machines could be better with small changes, not that it is junk, or any one is a criminal.

[McBuster]

Well folks, where I started this thread has gone a little different direction.

Originally, ...

I reviewed all I could of VZero and only the four corners are being used to calculate some offsets. My thought was, and still is, if I have a 8x10 piece of plywood, 3/8" thick, that is not twisted corner to opposite corner, but warped side to side or end to end, VZero can not be expected to be of much help in that situation. As, it knows nothing of the warp. However, it does know how planar the bed/piece are to the XYZ workings.

+++

For the record, I am not carving much of anything except basic lettering. But drilling lotsa holes with chamfers in 1/4" 3/8" 1/2" 5/8" 3/4" and sometimes, 1 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood.

Here is the Prod version where I make 4Up at a time. 3/8" B Birch.

I am not much into carving signs or plaques. Just production.

I have not knowingly posted something negative of the HD. I have however, noted some improvements (using a torque wrench to tighten fasteners) and also a glaring issue when the Y Axis dolly/assembly on the screw, the nuts/bolts were not even tightened down from the factory. Not one of them. That is just plain careless. A Pix is on another of my posts.

When I spotted this device, I was really excited. When I saw the 0.002" and the 0.000125" numbers - that is what I ---expected---. If I buy a Nikon camera for $4000, I kinda expect the shutter speed to be, 1/1000sec. Nothing less. If they say the shutter will go for 250,000 actuations, that is what I expect.

I have had three major issues producing my parts. 1) Drilling/Boring 1/2" and 9/16" holes by the hundreds without tearing the backside of the plywood all to pieces. 2) Chamferring the upper edge of those holes in a reasonably concentric fashion. 3) Laying down about 8" of simple Helvetica text on the X Axis and having it engraved evenly across the part. All of these are now under control and am getting satisfactory results. Btw, the Text is 0.025" deep using a 60 degree bit for my application. I am holding +/- 0.003" fairly easily now, across the surface of 8" x 8" ply.

That leads me to a very major disappointment. Not an "Unmet Expectation", but a "Reasonable Expectation" as regards the frame of a $4000 machine to be rigid. When I see comments that state to place it on a completely supported, flat surface as the Y Axis Guides will flex in the middle under the weight of the gantry. That is a true statement. Just setting on supports at the four corners is not enough.

+++

In my shop, 1/32" is not at all good enough.

Based on the 0.002" number, I expected to hold tolerances darn close to that. If not, the Manual should state otherwise. I also expect the gantry to hold that dimension and not flex unless I am doing something very wrong. But that expectation is unreasonable as, one can grab the chuck of the router and go almost an eighth of an inch in any X-Y direction. Or more ...

+++

I replaced the extruded bed with my own. That is working out quite well. I am also going to make a bench for it soon. The bench top will be three 3/4" pieces of Baltic Birch glued together. Then milled flat on both faces. Then sealed with an appropriate finish. If needed, the underside will be dado joints with stringers of 1x4 rock maple. That should provide a good support for the HD. Then, I will make two vertical members dadoed/glued to the top. The one in front, the forward 3/4" plastic that holds the servo etc, will be fastened to this piece. The actual bed I made, will no longer be attached to the plastic end pieces, but to the verticals from the bench top. And, the bed will have some adjustments in the corners and possibly the middle as well. All the plastic frame will do, is support the Y Axis. The servo end play will be bore by the ply front panel.

From there, I will make the enclosure, with sound and dust containment and move it all inside.

+++

Do I believe this machine can produce my products? Yes it can. It is. But only after significant modification to correct deficiencies and quality control issues from NWA. Things I am still working out.

Thanks for all the ideas and input.

[Tim Owens]

We seem to have 2 points that people are having trouble with.
1. Virtual Zero was for warped wood/plastic nothing to do with the table. We have the same issues on our larger 4x8 tables.
2. There are 5 points not 4 with Virtual Zero with one in the middle to detect the warping we need to have Wookworkers put that point in the video and the website.
If you have a quality issue with your machine then contact support 419 491-4520 on Monday.