Re: Spindle For Shark Available
Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:26 pm
I did the spindle thing on my Shark. I spent goofy amounts of time researching my decisions. You know the story! It went pretty well. Some notes follow.
First, I've had it with all the junk routers. I measured many new Bosch 1617's and the tolerances on them these days is poor. Emails to Bosch were completely ignored.
Same for those porter cables (which I find are much louder than the 1617).. I also measured a Hitachi. I have a few 20 year old routers that measure great. Precise Bits makes a wonderful product but it doesn't solve the collet socket issues. Though perhaps I could have touched up the bore using a diamond file, as many have done with the Bosch Colt.
I have a 2.2KW water cooled chinese spindle on my Shark HD. The weight and size of these units vary. the quality and bearings also vary. I wanted an ER20 collet for the versatility - mostly to accept 1/2" shank bits for surfacing spoil boards, and certain operations where I need that. I did not need the larger spindle for the power, etc. For most of what I do a smaller spindle would have been better. If you put too much spindle weight on a shark, it gets a bit 'bouncy' along the Y axis. Someone really needs to do a lighter spindle with the ER20 collet.
Some spindles, like mine, are about 12 lbs. Others closer to 7, which is more comparable to a router. A bosch 1617 is a little over 7 lbs. The Shark struggles with a 12 lbs spindle - the Y-axis moves tend to be less stable when stopping and stating moves. When I park the unit after using it, I rest the weight of the spindle on a block of wood.
My first spindle came from a US supplier. I paid about $220 shipped. The runout was okay, but it did not meet the advertised spec. It was not much better than a router, and I returned it. I wanted to exchange it but they didn't want to do that. It is worth mentioning that measuring spindle runout - offset vs. skew - is not at all a trivial process. And if you think you can do it, then you should be able to reproduce your results. That is the real test - can you duplicate your measurements.
My second spindle came from China - direct, with payment via paypal. That was a risk, but it went fine. The seller was someone with a good reputation and who has dealt with many folks. Still, it was a risk..
Price was similar, about $235 shipped. It was the same model, most likely (I say most likely because you just never know - there is so much copying of logos, etc). That spindle measured somewhat better (less offset, but a hint of skew).. Though when you really get into runout, and skew vs. offset, it is not something that is easily explained. There are tradeoffs. A spindle with skew can measure perfectly in one spot but not another.
Ultimately, if I want less runout, I will have my spindle re-machined, or re-machine it myself. Up until about a year ago we had a great grinding shop just 12 minutes up the road. They had the perfect machine for this task and it likely would have been fairly inexpensive for them to do the work. Unfortuantely they closed. I did get some good stuff from the auction. I am using a set of imported Shars collets I bought on Ebay. They are reasonably priced and those I measured were fairly true.
I use a hitachi X200 VFD to control my spindle, bought used on ebay for $150 (it was a very good buy, the 2.2KW units don't seem to come up often). It is a very nice unit. The Hitachi is incredibly well engineered. Most folks suggest buying a quality VFD vs. one of the generic imports from ebay. Though I read the generics have improved in recent years.
Configuring and tuning the VFD parameters could be a real challenge for some. Programming the settings in, and just running it without understanding any of it, is definitely possible. There are quite a few posts with suggested settings. I use Igus shielded VFD cable from the VFD to the spindle. This is a special shielded cable. It is important to shield the cable, and likely VFD, to prevent interference with the steppers. Igus ships quickly and their prices are very reasonable. The cable is very flexible and well made. You will likely have a lot of difficulty finding an appropriate cable locally, and most other places require large minimum orders.
I had to add a ground wire on the spindle. That involves removing the cable, crimping an end on a wire and soldering it to the spindle connector. This is important for safety and many folks have to do this. You need a 4 pin connector on the spindle to do this. Some spindles still come with 3 pin connectors, creating a bit of a headache. Some show a 3 pin in the ad but come with a 4 pin.
These spindles are disposable. I read that you can get a lot of life out of them, but if they need bearing service, you basically toss them. Bearings are expensive and the labor and skill required to disassemble and replace the bearings is Substantial. Special tools are required and probably need to be custom made to fit this application. You can do the searches and see the process for yourself. For this reason I would not pay much for these Chinese spindles. They are a commodity.
For some odd reason the US sellers on ebay are trying to get over $1000 for these spindles at the moment. I'd guess that they are out of stock and don't want to take their listings down. Most of the US ebay sellers are all fronts for the same corporation, I think.
I use a very small reservoir with my spindle - less than a gallon. Maybe in summer, for version 2.0, I'll need to do something larger. I use Green prestone anti-freeze, with distilled water. It is less toxic. Not all anti-freeze is the same. Some have silica additives to plug leaks. You really don't want that. If there is any internal leakage into the bearings, the silica could cause serious problems. I also use a small ebay aquarium heater to keep the reservoir at a reasonable min temp of about 75F.
Good spindles require that you break-in the bearings. Much of that process involves the heat distributing the grease. It is also advised that you warm up the bearings before high rpm use. These are a larger diameter bearing than most routers. I warm mine up for a couple-few minutes at 6000, 12000, 16000, and 20000. The somewhat warm water from the aquarium heater also helps and I of course circulate the for a few minutes first.
I made my own router mount out of 3/4" plywood. Thanks much to Rugenmach for posting the pattern! It is actually 6 or 7 sheets sandwiched together with 5/16" stud material. I had thought I would make a bracket to attach the studs above the mounts to the Shark to further increase rigidity, but I don't see the need.. The tubular router body is very stiff, and when you sandwich all of that together with the studs and all that plywood... I don't see the need. There are far more important areas to beef up. The smooth spindle body is also nice in how it is easily moved up and down in the mount. Though though adjusting 6 or 7 clamp bolts is to be avoided! Fortunately I don't need to do that.
Compared to a router, these things run smooooth. No comparison. Not even close. If you put your finger on that spindle body when it is turning 20K rpm, I'm sure you'd say "Wow!"
I still wear ear plugs. The spindle is very quiet but there is a high frequency component thaT I think requires protection.
Hope this helps!
First, I've had it with all the junk routers. I measured many new Bosch 1617's and the tolerances on them these days is poor. Emails to Bosch were completely ignored.
Same for those porter cables (which I find are much louder than the 1617).. I also measured a Hitachi. I have a few 20 year old routers that measure great. Precise Bits makes a wonderful product but it doesn't solve the collet socket issues. Though perhaps I could have touched up the bore using a diamond file, as many have done with the Bosch Colt.
I have a 2.2KW water cooled chinese spindle on my Shark HD. The weight and size of these units vary. the quality and bearings also vary. I wanted an ER20 collet for the versatility - mostly to accept 1/2" shank bits for surfacing spoil boards, and certain operations where I need that. I did not need the larger spindle for the power, etc. For most of what I do a smaller spindle would have been better. If you put too much spindle weight on a shark, it gets a bit 'bouncy' along the Y axis. Someone really needs to do a lighter spindle with the ER20 collet.
Some spindles, like mine, are about 12 lbs. Others closer to 7, which is more comparable to a router. A bosch 1617 is a little over 7 lbs. The Shark struggles with a 12 lbs spindle - the Y-axis moves tend to be less stable when stopping and stating moves. When I park the unit after using it, I rest the weight of the spindle on a block of wood.
My first spindle came from a US supplier. I paid about $220 shipped. The runout was okay, but it did not meet the advertised spec. It was not much better than a router, and I returned it. I wanted to exchange it but they didn't want to do that. It is worth mentioning that measuring spindle runout - offset vs. skew - is not at all a trivial process. And if you think you can do it, then you should be able to reproduce your results. That is the real test - can you duplicate your measurements.
My second spindle came from China - direct, with payment via paypal. That was a risk, but it went fine. The seller was someone with a good reputation and who has dealt with many folks. Still, it was a risk..
Price was similar, about $235 shipped. It was the same model, most likely (I say most likely because you just never know - there is so much copying of logos, etc). That spindle measured somewhat better (less offset, but a hint of skew).. Though when you really get into runout, and skew vs. offset, it is not something that is easily explained. There are tradeoffs. A spindle with skew can measure perfectly in one spot but not another.
Ultimately, if I want less runout, I will have my spindle re-machined, or re-machine it myself. Up until about a year ago we had a great grinding shop just 12 minutes up the road. They had the perfect machine for this task and it likely would have been fairly inexpensive for them to do the work. Unfortuantely they closed. I did get some good stuff from the auction. I am using a set of imported Shars collets I bought on Ebay. They are reasonably priced and those I measured were fairly true.
I use a hitachi X200 VFD to control my spindle, bought used on ebay for $150 (it was a very good buy, the 2.2KW units don't seem to come up often). It is a very nice unit. The Hitachi is incredibly well engineered. Most folks suggest buying a quality VFD vs. one of the generic imports from ebay. Though I read the generics have improved in recent years.
Configuring and tuning the VFD parameters could be a real challenge for some. Programming the settings in, and just running it without understanding any of it, is definitely possible. There are quite a few posts with suggested settings. I use Igus shielded VFD cable from the VFD to the spindle. This is a special shielded cable. It is important to shield the cable, and likely VFD, to prevent interference with the steppers. Igus ships quickly and their prices are very reasonable. The cable is very flexible and well made. You will likely have a lot of difficulty finding an appropriate cable locally, and most other places require large minimum orders.
I had to add a ground wire on the spindle. That involves removing the cable, crimping an end on a wire and soldering it to the spindle connector. This is important for safety and many folks have to do this. You need a 4 pin connector on the spindle to do this. Some spindles still come with 3 pin connectors, creating a bit of a headache. Some show a 3 pin in the ad but come with a 4 pin.
These spindles are disposable. I read that you can get a lot of life out of them, but if they need bearing service, you basically toss them. Bearings are expensive and the labor and skill required to disassemble and replace the bearings is Substantial. Special tools are required and probably need to be custom made to fit this application. You can do the searches and see the process for yourself. For this reason I would not pay much for these Chinese spindles. They are a commodity.
For some odd reason the US sellers on ebay are trying to get over $1000 for these spindles at the moment. I'd guess that they are out of stock and don't want to take their listings down. Most of the US ebay sellers are all fronts for the same corporation, I think.
I use a very small reservoir with my spindle - less than a gallon. Maybe in summer, for version 2.0, I'll need to do something larger. I use Green prestone anti-freeze, with distilled water. It is less toxic. Not all anti-freeze is the same. Some have silica additives to plug leaks. You really don't want that. If there is any internal leakage into the bearings, the silica could cause serious problems. I also use a small ebay aquarium heater to keep the reservoir at a reasonable min temp of about 75F.
Good spindles require that you break-in the bearings. Much of that process involves the heat distributing the grease. It is also advised that you warm up the bearings before high rpm use. These are a larger diameter bearing than most routers. I warm mine up for a couple-few minutes at 6000, 12000, 16000, and 20000. The somewhat warm water from the aquarium heater also helps and I of course circulate the for a few minutes first.
I made my own router mount out of 3/4" plywood. Thanks much to Rugenmach for posting the pattern! It is actually 6 or 7 sheets sandwiched together with 5/16" stud material. I had thought I would make a bracket to attach the studs above the mounts to the Shark to further increase rigidity, but I don't see the need.. The tubular router body is very stiff, and when you sandwich all of that together with the studs and all that plywood... I don't see the need. There are far more important areas to beef up. The smooth spindle body is also nice in how it is easily moved up and down in the mount. Though though adjusting 6 or 7 clamp bolts is to be avoided! Fortunately I don't need to do that.
Compared to a router, these things run smooooth. No comparison. Not even close. If you put your finger on that spindle body when it is turning 20K rpm, I'm sure you'd say "Wow!"
I still wear ear plugs. The spindle is very quiet but there is a high frequency component thaT I think requires protection.
Hope this helps!