FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Discussion about the CNC Shark Pro Plus HD

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NLAlston
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:42 pm

FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by NLAlston »

Hello everyone.

It was about seven years ago that I had an interest in getting into a CNC. At that time I had $4000 to play with, and looked into a few. Of those, the Shark Pro Plus (I believe it was) happened to be the one which caught the greater of my attention. I visited our local Rockler Store, and they happened to have a demo model which came with Vcarve Pro 6, a router and bits. However, I'd been reading about flexing in the gantry, which did play a huge factor in my, ultimately, stepping away from it. I bought the Carveright 'C' machine, instead. That, was a nice unit - but seemed (at least the one I had) to be fraught with issues. I felt that I was doing more detective work, on it, than having fun using it. Very temperamental it was, but a nice tool WHEN it was acting right. Now, I'm not bashing it Carveright machines as a whole, because (like I've said, above) it could have been just MY having one of their machines which had a terminal condition. So, now we fast forward to seven years later, and I will soon have a brand new Shark HD5 ext/bed CNC in my shop. Mine will come with the water-cooled spindle, touch plate, Vcarve Pro 10 software, Kent dust boot, and a starter set of CNC bits. I CAN'T WAIT to get it, and am currently doing my best to learn as much as I can about the unit - as well as the Vcarve Pro software (I'm about to join their forum). If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a couple of questions, and they are as follows:

1). SPINDLE COLLET ADAPTER.
It's to my understanding that an additional, router-holding apparatus will be included with my CNC machine. This would afford the ability to trade out the spindle, at times, for a router which would afford the usage of 1/2" shank bits. But I also
understand that there is a 'MuscleChuck' spindle adapter which is supposed to be able to fit the Shark's water-cooled spindle (I'd rather not use a router because of its high screaming characteristics). Along with considering this HD5 I had also
looked into a couple of other brands. When they listed water-cooled spindles on their machines, with 1/2" collets, their spindles were always 3hp or more. Would utilizing a 1/2" collet adapter, on the Shark, possibly cause unwanted strain on its
2hp spindle, when carving with the larger bits/cutters?

2). WATER COOLANT CONDITIONER.
Is there a liquid formula (whether straight, or a mixable concentrate) which might be better than just distilled water, for the spindle? I asked this, the last time I was at Rockler, but the employee didn't happen to know.

3). CHEAT CHART.
Lastly, is there such a thing, available, as a cheat chart for bit speeds, feeds and such, for various woods? I would appreciate ANY and ALL help that I could get, on these questions.


Again, I am REALLY looking forward to joining the ranks, here, and longing for the time when I can ALSO share some things on this forum.

Advanced thanks.

NLAlston
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by NLAlston »

Wow!! I am a bit disheartened that (out of 42 views, thus far) no one has offered any info as to my queries. Maybe it is felt that what I've asked for should be common knowledge - but it isn't, to me. They are very true concerns, regarding a quite expensive tool acquisition, and I had hoped to gain a much better understanding of things BEFORE I took such a plunge. I've even reached out to Next Wave Automation, and they never responded with a return email, or call. Maybe THAT (in and of itself) is a sign for the alteration of the planned course of travel, which I thought I'd be taking. Oh, well.

Rando
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Location: Boise, ID
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Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by Rando »

Yikes! Just back from a couple years doing other things, let me see if I can assist.

Yes, the Musclechuck is an awesome tool. They're available at https://www.musclechuck.com/
It's a fairly small family-owned company. If you use the typical 81mm water-cooled spindle, you want the ER-20A style
with the 1.0mm thread pitch. There's also an ER-20B style, with 1.5mm thread pitch. Definitely verify.
I also recommend keeping extra collet inserts on hand. Breaking a bit usually gouges the inside of the insert,
which then creates pressure-points on the next (unbroken) bit you use, making it much more likely to slip in the collet
and then break at that pressure point. Moral of the story is to replace the collet insert if the bit breaks inside it.

Normal water is fine. I use anti-freeze, but that's because I originally kept it in a freezer. A few drops of bleach
every couple weeks will help keep mold and fungus down, but don't go too crazy as it can eat through seals.
Speaking of which, when I started using antifreeze, people said it would eat through the various seals.
Hasn't so far, and the funny part is that if you ever need to replace the bearings (it's not all that difficult, just
spendy bearings) you'll see that the "seals" are two tiny o-rings that can be easily had. I haven't seen any
degradation on my unit. But, when you look at the numbers, antifreeze might not freeze or boil, but it actually
carries away LESS heat than plain water. The proper spindle temperature is in the 90-120F range: warm enough
to make the bearing grease flow, but not so hot it melts and drains out, or burns the balls / races. Which means
it should be warmed up before use. I've found (since I do a lot of aluminum work on my shark) that warming it up
definitely helps with total runout and thus surface finish.

Cheat chart....I posted one a long time ago, but my work is mainly in aluminum or acrylic, not wood. Have you
looked into one of the feeds-and-speeds calculators? I paid for and really like the cnccookbook.com one, as it
handles all sorts of weird stuff that I do these days. Simpler ones can be found as online tools or phone apps.

The sharks, being made out of HDPE, definitely have limitations far below the more-expensive machines, but
that does not mean effective cutting parameters are impossible to find.

Hope that helps, and my apologies for the others who didn't answer....lazy bums ;-). Okay, not really....did
you use the forum search to look first? Those questions surely have been answered a few times. The search
function is sometimes hard to find, but it's here as well:

https://www.cncsharktalk.com/search.php ... %5B0%5D=15

Cheers!

#Rando
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)

NLAlston
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by NLAlston »

Rando,

Thank you, SO MUCH, for your very enlightening response. I TRULY did not mean to sound as I did, but I WAS quite concerned about not having had received any replies. In response to your question - regarding my searches for such answers, elsewhere, I can say that I have been swallowing every bit of information that I could find, on the Shark. I wanted one, seven years ago, but backed away from it because of the gantry having reported issues with flexing. I'd not had any experience with CNC machines, before that, but knew that it was a tool that I really wanted to add to my shop. So I opted for a Carveright machine. THAT, was ok. And (in MY case) JUST ok. Now, however, I am in need of another machine, and wish to have something better than what I had. I am in the market for a good unit which could stand up to daily operation. It would have to be a turn-key solution, as I don't want to build.

It was given to my understanding that the Shark HD5 cured the flexing ills of its predecessors. That supposed fact, along with the water cooled spindle (and a few other niceties), is what had drawn me back to an interest in it. But, in my research, it has turned out that the gantry still ISN'T as rigid as it SHOULD be (at least it's what I've recently come across). I don't think that I would doing much in metals (maybe some brass engravings, but nothing outside of that). My main focus would be on relief carvings, and sign making. I love woodworking, but am also aimed at making money, with a CNC machine. I'm trying to learn all that I can, to better arm myself with knowledge of just how capable the Shark HD5 would be, for my needs.

Again, I thank you.

Rando
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm
Location: Boise, ID
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Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by Rando »

Oh man, you're either going to love or HATE me for this one!

I too didn't like the backplate. But, for me, that was a LOT less of an issue than was the hdpe mounting of the spindle. Getting it aligned under zero load was tricky, and keeping it aligned during actual movement was an exercise in "staying inside the envelope" where the envelope is smaller than the postage stamp ;) . So, I built an aluminum replacement for all that plastic. Works a LOT better, but that's a different post.

I might have mentioned my current haunt is a metals-fabrication shop. About a year ago, we managed to order an extra stack (50 x 25 foot long sticks) of 1/8" thick, 2" aluminum angle. So, I could possibly be accused of the old saying "if all you have is a hammer, everything's a nail...." 'cause I am finding lots of uses for it. For example.....

This one requires about ~20 pcs #10-24 x 3/4" pan head philips screws and nylon-insert nuts (stainless steel if available; hardened not necessary)
Rear of Gantry view
Rear of Gantry view
View along Gantry
View along Gantry
The pieces sit quite nicely against the upper and lower bolt heads that already protrude from the back, so they're easy to align. I just clamped the pieces on, and then drilled holes along the length that didn't interfere with anything on the other side.

You'll notice I also added some fasteners along the very edge of the gantry back plate to the hdpe side-plate.

The gantry is noticeably stiffer now, and the weight increase was rather minimal.

That was the EASY part....

[limit of three attachments, so the underside part in the next comment....]
Last edited by Rando on Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)

Rando
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm
Location: Boise, ID
Contact:

Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by Rando »

The HARD part was doing the same to the plate that runs underneath.

See, there's a problem with that. Because the linear bearings under the bed can rotate around the axis of the rail, they form a pivot point. The rectangle that is the gantry, therefore, when pushed from side to side (along the width of the gantry), has the ability to flex. you can even see the flexing of that drive bar underneath when you tug on the gantry support arm from side-to-side. Because it wasn't going to be easy to put nuts under both sides, I ended up using Tim's air pop-rivet tool and a bunch of stainless (strong!) rivets. Had to detach the bed, hoist it slightly using the overhead gantry crane (did I mention working in a metals shop has certain advantanges? like a 300-ton press brake, for example!), and slide it down toward the stepper motor on the end of the bed. Once there, I was able to drill my 3/16" holes and put those mondo rivets in. Below are a couple attempts to photograph it.

This is of the side away from the stepper. Note the small cutout for the lead screw. The rivets are placed about every 2" apart.
The side away from the stepper. Note the small cutout for the lead screw. The rivets are placed about every 2" apart.
The side away from the stepper. Note the small cutout for the lead screw. The rivets are placed about every 2" apart.
This is of the side toward the stepper. Note the larger cutout for eventually changing out the anti-backlash nut.
The side toward the stepper. Note the larger cutout for eventually changing out the anti-backlash nut.
The side toward the stepper. Note the larger cutout for eventually changing out the anti-backlash nut.
Although the drive plate reinforcement made it better, those right-angle joints where the gantry arms connect at their bottoms: seriously? 1/4" angle? THAT needs reinforcement. Haven't gotten there, as it seemed a bit more invasive than I wanted at that moment.

Cheers! Together, we can make the system "better". It'll never be a $450K, 4-ton machine with a 50 hp spindle. Ain't gonna happen. But, the system can be improved to great effect, and even just to better dynamics in the materials is WAS designed for.

Regards,

#Rando
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)

NLAlston
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by NLAlston »

Wow, Rando. THANK YOU.

Seems quite the 'surgical job', needed to get that unit working as it should. I wasn't expecting miracles with it, of course :), but HAD expected it to be better than THAT (as it was STATED to be). Indeed, the recipe that you have described is, undeniably, quite the undertaking - leading (also) into cost factoring concerns. I can't say that it's feasible for me to go into such an expenditure with the, beforehand, knowledge that I'd have to almost rebuild that unit, before getting the best out of it. Additionally, my mechanical inclination might not be up to snuff, enough (Replacing a defective part is one thing. But, something of THAT magnitude)?

It appears that I might be better served by looking at another manufacturer's offering. I'm not putting the NWA units down; maybe they used the less sturdy properties as a means by which to keep the price points lower. I can understand that, to a degree, but MY focus, and aims, require something beefier than that. As I think that I had mentioned before - mine, is not just a love for what I do. I am to use my CNC for that of income generation, also. As such, I need a machine which won't argue with me about working it all day, every day.

But again, I can't say enough about my appreciation for your input.

Stay safe, my friend and God Bless.

Nathan

Rando
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Location: Boise, ID
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Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by Rando »

Thanks, Nathan; the idea is to find what works. I'm not a particular brand loyalist, either.

About a year ago I was involved in bringing in some truly BIG CNC routers: 6 x 25 foot things, took two fork lifts, that kind of thing, a facility about 80 miles from here.

And you know what I discovered? They sucked too. In fact, one of them was even using the exact same controller technology that the Sharks used to use: ncPod. Crazy stuff, given it was created around 2000-2002! They still don't have a post-processor that properly handles the supposed tool changer hardware. But that's okay...they got a second, different one with a 4th axis...that keeps crashing the bit into the 4th axis housing.

Now, whether that's operator, programmer, post-processing "guy", or the manufacturer's fault, I have no clue. But what I do know is that I've produce a lot more complex and functional parts on my hacked FrankenCNC shark than they do. Which is odd, since they're being paid to do that....

So, my advice is to accept that it's going to be a challenge finding a vendor that not only produces good solid HARDware, but also has a great controller, excellent software, and tight CAD/CAM integration. Sadly for us at the lower reaches of the price spectrum, all those really cool features we really want only come with the application of either time or money. :mrgreen: For me, having less sense than product-engineering know-how, that dangerous combination means I will productize pretty much any significant upgrade, because I know I'm not the only one!

Regards,

Rando
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)

NLAlston
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by NLAlston »

Rando,

Actually, I am not sure (just yet) as to which direction I may proceed in - regarding a CNC purchase. I have been doing some research on the Axiom Pro V5, and that thing looks to be built like a tank. Of course, it's a fair bit more money, but (from all that I have gathered, thus far) it seems to be something that just might work well for me. It isn't often at all, that you reach a point where you have the opportunity to avail yourself of something of this monetary magnitude - and a wise thinking individual would strive to make the most/best of such an expenditure. You were so right, though, when you'd alluded to the cost of something NOT, necessarily, translating into 'better'. I just hope that whichever way that I choose to drive THIS vehicle, will be done the right road :). I've about worn out my brain, with all the many hours of researching that I have done, over the past month. And I am almost at the point where I am just going to take a chance - on something. It could very well be that I resort back to the HD5, and (maybe) look to you for more info on what you'd have for the strengthening of its gantry. Maybe I would find that the HD5's gantry is not as bad as I have read it is projected to be.

A few moments ago, I came across another thread of yours, where you posted about some type of gantry upgrade. I don't remember its title, at present, but it was interesting. If I DID decide to return my interest to the HD5 - and realized an actual need for stiffening - I would certainly like to know the cost for it - as well as how difficult it might be for someone like me (remember that I'm not very mechanically inclined :)) to handle the upgrading task. Hopefully, it would be something that I COULD actually do.

I'll let you know how I make out.

NLAlston
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: FINALLY - I'm getting in.

Post by NLAlston »

Hey Rando,

Well, the decision has been made, for me. Yes, the path I'm to take is now clear. Ten minutes ago I heard back from a tech at Axiom. It seems that I had been, previously, given the some wrong information. Last week, I had explained the configuration of lead-in way to our basement, and was assured that the Axiom could make it in. But the gantry - nor the spindle, can be removed from the unit. As such, I would never be able to get it through the door leading to the basement. I, first, thought to myself - 'What a letdown". Then, it occurred to me that this just might be a Blessing. Looking back, now, to the HD5, I can honestly say that I am realizing a bit of relief. That 'Shark' may prove to be a fine performer for me. So, we'll see how things work out with it.

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