Rugged router

Discussion specifically about the Shark's bigger brother, the CNC Shark Pro

Moderators: sbk, al wolford

Rugged router

Postby texasinmi » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:18 pm

I go through a Dewalt 611 set of brushes every 4 months, or less, no big deal to change them out. I have now gone through my second set of router bearing in about 18 months, big pain to change. I work mostly with hardwood.

My question for the assembled guru's is can anyone recommend a more rugged router for my Shark Pro for my application?

Thanks in advance,

texasinmi
texasinmi
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 3:06 pm

Re: Rugged router

Postby Rando » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:38 pm

One word : Spindle!

https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.c ... c-spindle/

or even the one from NWA if you're so inclined.

Better speed-range, better torque, very quiet, water-cooled, digitally-adjustable, and FAR more accurate in the less-runout way....

Many people opt for the 2.2kw / 3hp ones, but honestly I don't think I've ever really used over a couple HP at the most, and it's more likely in the <0.1hp. And I'm cutting metals! Because our sharks are partly made from HDPE, the more weight will sag that Z-axis carriage more. So, if you're literally never once going to use all that HP, then why spend the money or burn the energy to spin that heavier spindle? In all honestly, if you can find a way to make it fit, I'd seriously consider something more in the 800w / 1.2hp (?) range. Likely plenty for all woodworking except cuts that really shouldn't be done in the first place, right?

You didn't hear it from me, though.... :?

Cheers!

Thom
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)
Rando
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm
Location: Hoquiam, WA

Re: Rugged router

Postby bill z » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:56 am

Don't fire hose me but tell me something about spendals.

Will a spendal last longer than, say, 3 routers? 4 routers?

I went to the link above and saw an air cooled spindle for about the same dollar amount as a router.

Allow me to backup a little. I'm now retired and have to watch my spending. My CNC is a hobby. I may be able to justify buying a spendal when it is time to replace my Bosch router, to keep the wife happy.

What all will I NEED to buy if I bought the air cooled spindle in the link above to work with the Shark?

If I went water cooled, what would I NEED to buy, minimuly, to have a water cooled spindle running on my Shark?

Suggestions and enlightenment please.
User avatar
bill z
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Spring, Texas USA

Re: Rugged router

Postby SteveM » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:34 am

You can usually get a 2.2kw spindle, VFD to run the spindle and everything else you would need for less than the cost of the Nextwave setup.
I don't know anyone bothering to change the bearing on a spindle, they just buy a new spindle.
Like Rando said before, a spindle has more power than a router, is very quiet and runs smoother and lasts longer than any router you could buy.
For me, noise is why I went to a spindle. The routers are simply too loud.
My spindle is a HY brand and cost is about $220 shipped. When you consider a router costing about $150 and then having to replace bearings and brushes often, then the spindle is the way to go.
SteveM
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:29 pm
Location: Franklin, Wisconsin

Re: Rugged router

Postby bill z » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:06 am

SteveM wrote:You can usually get a 2.2kw spindle, VFD to run the spindle and everything else you would need


The part 'and everything else you would need' is what I'm concerned about. Not the dollar, but, just what art those parts I would need?

Also, would the standard Shark controller run the speed or just on/off?

Again, I have not used a spindle or seen one used up close on any CNC much less a shark..
User avatar
bill z
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Spring, Texas USA

Re: Rugged router

Postby Rando » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:05 pm

bill z wrote:
SteveM wrote:You can usually get a 2.2kw spindle, VFD to run the spindle and everything else you would need


The part 'and everything else you would need' is what I'm concerned about. Not the dollar, but, just what art those parts I would need?

Also, would the standard Shark controller run the speed or just on/off?

Again, I have not used a spindle or seen one used up close on any CNC much less a shark..


As I think about what surrounds my spindle, I see these things you'll need:

There will be a spindle mount plate to fit the new diameter. The higher torque and accuracy often mandates an aluminum one. Dixie Billets or something. I can make you one, but I'd charge you too much :oops:

There will be some time "tramming" the vertical alignment of that new spindle. Love them even as we do, the Shark spindle platforms sag in a load-dependent way. Which means when you get that bodacious spindle, the water inside it, the cables, the tubes, the wires and the massive mount plate loaded up, there's gonna be some droop. The way I've been able to tram out the vast majority of that sag was to loosen the clamp, and push the top of the spindle back towards the gantry to compensate, and then tighten. Or, loosen the bolts just a little, and use percussive maintenance to gently force it backwards, to compensate for the sag. Trust me, the closer you get the spindle to vertical, the fewer problems you'll have long term with strange problems with lines on bottoms and side walls.

There will be routing of the water-cooling tubes to and from whatever tank/pump combination you get. Lots of choices here, both for the tubes and tank, but also how you route those tubes. For me, I use a 3-Gallon boat gas tank filled with 100% anti-freeze and a boat lavatory pump. Nearly everything goes "up" and is suspended from rubber shock-cords to offset the weight :twisted: **You** can expect maybe $20 here, and cheaper is probably possible. And, use water...antifreeze is for freaks like me who put their coolant tank in an actual freezer, to no discernible benefit since the spindle bearings want to be "warm" and not "ice-cold-beer cold" :roll: .

If you're interested in knowing the spindle's temperature without having to touch it in operation, get a couple of those stick-on beer home-brew thermometers. They work using LCD chemicals, so no electricity, and they go right on the (clean and oil-free!) spindle case. And, they're typically quite inexpensive; a couple bucks each, IIRC. One thing to keep in mind: if there is temp differences along the spindle-case, there might be strange effects on the thermometer, since each numbered entry corresponds to a different location on the spindle. Get a second one for the coolant water tank, and a third one because the next time you take the spindle out, it will ruin the first thermometer ;). You want it "warm", but NOT "hot", and avoid running hard when it's "cold". Those are the technical specifications as I understand them. It's really more about the bearing grease being mobile enough to prevent wear and thus increased runout. Geeks! :ugeek: :roll:

There will be the mounting of the VFD module. If you get one where you can mount the power part a bit remote, I recommend it, so that would usually call for getting an Ethernet cable of a few meters. Mount the control where you do your bit-changes, so you will always check it's stopped before inserting soon-to-be-missing fingers.

There will be the heavy-duty, high-current (think 16Ga or larger), high-flexibility, armored and shielded cable that goes from the VFD to the spindle. Well, if you can find it there will be. I have some, but I'm not finding "Belden Style 2464" that anywhere resembles it. IIRC, it's 16Ga 4Cond + Shield and Drain Wire. Motor takes three wires, case ground is four. Connect shield to ground at VFD, but not at motor-end. The spindle should come with the connector, but you might need to buy and then solder that cable. Do NOT scrimp on that cable, and if at all possible, get a SHIELDED cable. This is not 60Hz AC being sent up that cable. The right wire is NOT cheap, and I'm pretty sure is NOT at the local hardware store. Yes, I've seen "people" using extension cords, but please don't. Unless you're not me and don't WANT a 986-foot spool of really expensive wire becoming another legacy item :shock: . There should be a real ground in that cable. Get some really thick extension cord wire by-the-foot from the hardware store, or even yes a really large-gauge but flexible extension cord. Just remember: a wiring short or motor failure could put something like 100+ Volts at 600Hz onto that case. Protect first, die another day!

IMPORTANT: VFDs do NOT like being plugged in all the time, but at the currents they pull, a standard light switch ain't gonna cut it. The solution? A 3-terminal "contactor". Just get it; they're cheap, you don't want a fried VFD because your vacuum started and threw a spike at your turned-off system. They're available new and used, for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BACO-172000-IE ... SwlptaFJ8i

There will be 220VAC service needed near your CNC, and you'll need to purchase, prep and install the "pigtail" from the 220VAC outlet to the contactor. If it's a standard household dryer plug, just pick one up at the local hardware store, cheap and powerful, and they even limit the length to keep you honest ;) .

There will be time spent reading the translated-from-Chinese operating manual. Look for the accel/decel ratings and extend them OUT to allow more even spin-up. Why? Because we're all lazy and nobody wants to warm their spindle up with 20minutes at 2000 RPM, that's why ;) If you want really FAST spindle braking, you'll need to invest in (typically) a 1 Ohm @ 700W vitreous-enameled, wire-wound resistors. They cost about $600 each...and you need TWO of them. But hey, you can get indexed positioning....you know you want it! :roll:

And if you're a GOD AMONG MEN, you'll also dig in and find the maximum Hz setting, and up that from 400Hz to 600Hz. Don't tell mom, but that moves you from 24K RPM max to 36K RPM max. Yeah, now you CAN spin a 1/32" endmill in aluminum and get proper cutting parameters!

You might want to branch out and try using some high-speed steel cutters. They're awesome in acrylic because they are "sharper" than even brand new, "solid" carbide bits, and they can be spun slower, leading to lower heat being put into the cut, making the cuts even cleaner. To do that, you'll likely need to find and change the minimum-frequency setting, and turn that down to like 10, which will let you get down to about 600 RPM. If you do that, be sure to increase the "low-RPM current boost" setting so you don't lose out on all that yummy torque. Don't max it out, as this seems to be able to freeze the motor in position when set too high (don't ask...). But, increasing the value by, say 25% is a good starting place. Remember, it's not so much the stall-torque, but rather the slowing of the motor under load that will mess up your cuts. So, give it enough boost current to handle the reasonable max you expect (relative to total motor torque available at that lower RPM), but don't overdo it.

There may (will?) be a need to become much more precise in how you calculate your cutting parameters, since you now actually CAN tell how fast the spindle is spinning.

Okay, so now you've got the spindle mounted and running, and we believe aligned.

Next up you're going to want to standardize on some bit-holding method. I use a Muscle Chuck, which means I then went out and got 2 units of each collet insert I expect to use. If you go with a more-traditional set of ER-20 collet inserts (or whatever your spindle has), those will be precise (proportional to $$$ inserted into online vendor), and let you hold the random drill bit as well. The downside? As a user of standard-sized bits, you'll probably never use 90% of them. But, they ARE pretty! :roll:

A note about collet inserts. If perchance you break bits, small or large, (it does happen) very...no, VERY carefully inspect the inside surfaces of the collet insert that was in place when it happened. If the bit breaks inside the neck of the collet, there will almost always be a gash in the inside of that insert. If you then take a NEW bit and clamp it in that insert, it will almost surely pinch the shank, and cause a weak spot in that new bit, making it even more likely to break under deflection. Which, absolutely SUX, because if you bought an el-cheapo brand set of inserts and you can't buy them individually, then you're going to buy ANOTHER set. So, when choosing your inserts, it might make sense to get a set of high-enough grade that later you CAN buy extra ones. And, I'd even recommend up-front buying an extra copy of the 1/8, 3/16 (don't laugh...3/16" EMs in aluminum are the bees' knees), 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" inserts. Thing is, clamps will ALWAYS rearrange themselves in such a way as to hit your bit. And small bits break. They do. So, be prepared for when they do, because otherwise, you'll be down and whiny for days. :?

If you expect to use a wiggler-style edge finder, or an electronic one, you'll want to make sure you have that bit-holding situation in-hand. That is, don't choose a permanent collet/chuck solution that will prevent you from using other kinds of standard tools. You never know: as you learn more, you'll want to branch out and try new things. These machines can take you a long way if you want to go there, but in many cases, a copious application of bucks is needed. But, that's going to be true anywhere. The big boys have to slap down $500 for a (new Kurt D688) machining vise just like you and me.

That's the main points. The better a spindle-mount plate you get, the happier you'll be. And that other stuff too ;).

As always, hope that helps.

Regards,

Thom
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)
Rando
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm
Location: Hoquiam, WA

Re: Rugged router

Postby bill z » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:43 am

Thanks Thom.

Great detail as usual.

Is there any advantage in starting with the air cooled spindle first then grow into a water cooled (hide expense from wife factor)? Would the mounts, the VFD and the wiring be the same or would everything change if I should go to a water cooled spindle later.

I'm just guessing here, but the aluminum router mount I bought from Dixie Billets for my Bosch router won't work on the spindle? Is this probably true?
User avatar
bill z
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Spring, Texas USA

Re: Rugged router

Postby SteveM » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:55 am

I have a water cooled spindle and it's very quiet. The air cooled are also quiet, but not as much as the water cooled. Price is almost the same, but with air cooled, you don't have to mess with any plumbing.
The Bosch router is about 89mm and most spindles are 80mm, so you would probably want a new mount.
As for the dust boot, I have the Kent dust boot, so I cut a spacer ring out of 3/4" thick piece pvc plastic I had laying around and just put a slice through it. That became my spacer for the dust shoe. Worked just fine and the dust boot doesn't move around at all.
SteveM
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:29 pm
Location: Franklin, Wisconsin

Re: Rugged router

Postby sharkcutup » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:26 pm

Hello Everyone,

I have had the 2 hp 110V water-cooled spindle that next wave automation sells (got mine from Rockler at the time two years ago). It is quiet and powerful enough for my needs! It also has been very dependable. Granted you cannot have it controlled by the shark controller but it does have some other interesting advantages (such as controlling spindle speed manually is one advantage). The only other things that would be needed is the correct mounting bracket for the spindle and a reservoir for the coolant (water). I usually add a little antifreeze to the water as a coolant/lubricant. Not sure if it helps any but I add it anyway. The anti-freeze seems to keep the unwanted algae and other happenings from occurring to the water over long periods of time too.

Been very Satisfied with my Shark CNC Pro HD3 Extended Bed and water-cooled spindle. In fact, if you are just a little curious as to some of my projects created with my Shark just go to Hogan's CNC Crafts on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hogans.CNC.crafts/ There are a couple of photos of the machine when I had first set it up there too!!!

Sharkcutup
Shark HD3 Pro Plus Extended Bed with Spindle
Facebook: Hogan's CNC Crafts
sharkcutup
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:23 pm


Return to Shark Pro

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest