Spindles

Discussion about the CNC Shark Pro Plus

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Spindles

Postby woodi » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:05 am

Hi everyone,
I am new to the CNC woodworking hobby so if I ask dumb questions bear with me. Dumb questions are solved by smart answers, right? I bought a used Shark HD2 and have discovered many things I don't understand but learning. It came with an water cooled spindle (er16) which will not accept any of my 1/2 router bits. If I upgrade to a er20 will it fit the spindle holder on the cnc?
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Re: Spindles

Postby Rando » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:39 pm

woodi wrote:Hi everyone,
I am new to the CNC woodworking hobby so if I ask dumb questions bear with me. Dumb questions are solved by smart answers, right? I bought a used Shark HD2 and have discovered many things I don't understand but learning. It came with an water cooled spindle (er16) which will not accept any of my 1/2 router bits. If I upgrade to a er20 will it fit the spindle holder on the cnc?


Woodi:

Hello and welcome; if you're new, I hope the below doesn't confuse you even more!

I suppose the answer primarily depends on what you mean by "upgrade to an er20". If you mean going to a more-powerful spindle motor that can handle the ER20 chuck, then yes. If you mean can you just get an ER20 nut and collet-insert, and have that work on the smaller spindle? Not likely.

If you're going into an ER-20 and like the idea of one-handed (not two-wrenched) bit changes, take a look at the MuscleChuck family. They eat a bit of height, but not so much it's a problem, it seems.

Oh! almost forgot...don't expect the bottom of the spindle's body to be in the same place as your old router: the bit-attachment part on my spindle is significantly longer than that of the router. When I initially put it in, it essentially ate about an inch of vertical travel, so mine isn't even technically "inside" that bottom carriage-structure plate.

When you have the router out, you're **probably** going to want to move the gantry up to the highest set of bolt locations. It depends on your needs, of course. I'm using a pretty substantial vise on my bed, so getting the very bottom of the z-axis frame over it was "needed" ;-).

As to whether you can just drop in the more-powerful spindle, yes, but only if the spindle body diameters are the same. My 2.2KW one is 80mm. From what I've been seeing, as the power goes down, the diameter does as well. as far as the "right" way to mount it, well, you're REALLY going to hate what I'm making for my HD2 (the copper-colored Rocker Anniversary edition) :D

SharkHD2+TrammableSpindleMount80mm.JPG
Oh yeah, baybay!


Includes all sorts of goodies; machined from solid plate and bar aluminum; the spindle can be tilted back 3 degrees to compensate for system sag! It has attachment points for many accessories, including an always-mounted, swing-out-of-the-way dial indicator. Not a touch probe, an actual dial indicator, 0.0005" resolution. This one is smaller, and actually lighter than the original HDPE one. And, per recent posts...it won't melt...well, in most situations anyway...hahahaha.

Unfortunately, it's also far too expensive to make that it could ever be sold. It's looking like, from a "real" shop, in onesies, would cost on the order of $1500+. So, maybe Thom's the only one who gets one 8-) .

Anyway, I dug up the original CRV file for the very first spindle mount bracket I made.

80mmSpindleMountPlate.crv
Primitive spindle mount plate
(6.28 MiB) Downloaded 16 times


WARNING: That CRV file has bits and cutting parameters for cutting 1" thick aluminum plate. There is almost zero likelihood you will be doing that, so ADJUST, EDIT, REGENERATE, and VALIDATE all aspects of those toolpaths and cutting parameters into those appropriate forthe material you're using. Typically that would be HDPE, but any number of materials might be used. This is important!


VERIFY THE DIMENSIONS! (But, since mine worked on my HD2, chances are it'll be fine) One note: if you can, you're going to want to do this "one weird trick". Figure out the weight difference between your current router and the new spindle. Then, figure out a way to attach a little less than that weight onto the top of the router when you're cutting the new clamp. This sets the "sag angle" your machine is showing, into the walls of the spindle bore. Okay, technically only ONE of the walls, the one farthest the gantry. Before starting the cut for that new bracket, mark the "up-facing" side for later reference. When the new plate is carved, go ahead and remove the old router and its clamp plate, and the four bolts. Now, FLIP THAT NEW MOUNT OVER, attach the spindle, then mount that into the z-axis carriage. Leave the clamp bolts just a little loose, and then use a deadblow hammer or similar to nudge the spindle into a vertical orientation, verified with a dial indicator run along the very front of the spindle body, as you jog it up and down. WATCH the bed and your travel limits! Don't let the dial indicator distract you into ruining your machine . That sag angle that got put into the walls is now acting to compensate nearly all of that sag. Schweet, huh? When you're all aligned, tighten the clamp bolt, then loosen and re-tighten the four plate-to-plate bolts.

That totally helped my cutting of deep holes (think a 9 and 12mm bore through 2" of aluminum bar that have to be as concentric/co-axial as feasible on the shark). By the time you get to the bottom of that pocket, if the bit isn't perfectly straight up and down, well, chances are the bit just broke ;-).

In the attached crv file, typically you'd probably only cut one. I cut two, because, well, who knows....Also, I have my X-and-Y axes swapped, so you might need to rotate the whole thing. The slot between the arms must go in the same direction as the gantry movement. Don't argue, just do it ;-) It's all about making sure the compensated sag is in the right part of the hole.

Good luck on the upgrade, like many others have mentioned here, I too enjoy the smoother and quieter operation of mine, and that is a very common sentiment. But more importantly, for a dweeb like me working in metal on the sharks, the far lower runout of the spindle makes for much less chatter, and much better finishes when cutting the softer metals.

Regards, and best of luck! Let us know if there's anything else....

Thom
=====================================================
ThomR.com Creative tools and photographic art
A proud member of the Pacific Northwest CNC Club (now on Facebook)
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Re: Spindles

Postby bhoppy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:41 pm

IMG_2256.JPG
80mm spindle mount
tHi guys,

I have also added a 2.2kw spindle with the 1/2" capacity ER-20 colletss to my Shark HD-3. I removed all the z axis crap (sorry just my opinion) and replaced it with a simple aluminum plate and a 80mm cast aluminum clamp. Very rigid and easy to tram. I also sacrificed a little z travel to gain a lot more rigidity by spreading the two bearing carriers about 1-1/4" farther apart. The original plastic angle bracket mounts with these carriers quite close together so it exaggerates any play. Love the resulting rigidity, low noise level and improved cutting with the spindle. I had gone thru three routers in three years. I ran a couple of my production jobs and all went great. Much better finishes with tighter tolerances and shorter cut times. I have just done a couple of carving jobs with a lot of z moves and a new problem has surfaced. The z axis is losing position at random points. My first job ran about 4 hours no problem then all of a sudden started cutting about .300" too deep. The tool and spindle did not move, it lost it's zero. I then cleaned and lubricated and ran through two complete cycles and no problem. I then started a new job and was about 45 minutes into the 3D finish pass and it started cutting about 1" too deep. My 1/4 ball end mill made a deep groove right thru the middle of a piece of cherry. A little loud but the tool did not break. I think that says something about the rigidity. I have read other post about z axis creeping but am not sure if they jump drastic amounts like I am experiencing. I am guessing it is either electrical interference or the added weight of the spindle causing the problem. I did use shielded cable on my spindle. I am thinking I might try rigging a 4 pound counter weight on the z axis to match the weight of my old router to see if that solves mr problem. I am running the 1.6 control panel and do not know if there is a way to slow the acceleration or the rapid z speed.

Update to my above. I have found it quite easy to duplicate the failure by jogging the z axis manually in the up direction. This eliminates the electrical interference thought. It moves real smooth if I keep the speed at medium but fails when I set to fast. Manually putting upward pressure on the spindle to try and simulate my counterweight idea does not seem to help. It just seems the servo is too weak for the fast speed and acceleration. I will contact NWA next week but does anyone know how to slow the z rapid and acceleration?





Regards,
Bill
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