Greetings sharkheads....
I've had my pro plus for a couple months.
First thing noticed is how terrible and un level the blue deck pieces are.
I could not get a consistent level cut at all.
Did some testing and realized it was indeed the blue table pieces.
Bought a 2" acrylic 2'x2' piece and super taped it down.
Then shaved it by 1/8" using several passes to level.
No go.
when i say level I mean in relation to what the machine cuts. Straight if you will.
After another round of shaving, this time at a 90 degree cut I still have the same result.
it's very slight but the middle of my acrylic is about 1/16" lower than the rest.
It's a slight bowl shape on my board.
So picture you are just doing a 2' cut of the letter X with the Vbit.
going down just .1.
the middle section of the letter say about as round as 10" across will not get cut.
Gradually cutting more until the outside edges of the X are fully cut to depth.
This has been causing some issues utilizing the entire cutting area.
For now I've been cutting smaller pieces along the Y edge which seems to be flattest.
anyone else have issues with getting a perfectly flat cut?
It's driving me nuts. Got a call in with NWA to see what they think.
level cuts? can it be done?
Moderators: al wolford, sbk, Bob, Kayvon
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
You are probably seeing the sag that is in the machine due to weight of the components acting on the unsupported bearings. I can't recall if my results were exactly the same as yours, but they were quite similar.
That piece of 2" material was not cheap, and I think what has happened is that you have milled the top to be perfectly parallel to the bit path, but the bit does not move perfectly straight and even. This drove me crazy till I realized that my assumption that the machine was stiff enough to maintain straightness was wrong. I thought at first it was 100% the table top.
If you grab your router tip ( turned off of course) and pull on it you can see the x axis bars flex. It is in the weakest position when mid x axis and sags a little there under its own weight. In the past Tim has cautioned about adding extra weight to the router area when folks were talking about dust collectors and hoses, as that would have exacerbated the issue.
If you were cutting thin material and had a milled top vacuum table to pull it down tight, it might be workable, but it's still not right. So in the case of a non linear machine, the shaved table top approach does not work because it is not straight and even, and the work placed on it will bridge the low spots and no longer be following the bit path.
The pro hd should help that a lot, as it has the supported style linear bearings (that I had to retrofit to my pro).
They do make a big difference.
While that does not solve your immediate problem, it helps to explain what I believe your core issue may be, so you don't chase any wild geese.
For many users it does not seem to have been an issue. For me it was, and I had to solve it on my own. Hopefully NWA will come up with a reasonable retrofit for your machine. At the small premium in price the HD brings over the pro plus, I would imagine most new sales will be the HD if people are aware of the issue. It would have been a no-brainer for me had it existed two years ago.
Seeing that retrofits would only be done to existing machines for existing customers, I hope NWA will consider that in their pricing of whatever solution they offer, as many parts will be discarded and replaced in the upgrade.
I hope this helps. ( been there, I feel your pain).
Bob
That piece of 2" material was not cheap, and I think what has happened is that you have milled the top to be perfectly parallel to the bit path, but the bit does not move perfectly straight and even. This drove me crazy till I realized that my assumption that the machine was stiff enough to maintain straightness was wrong. I thought at first it was 100% the table top.
If you grab your router tip ( turned off of course) and pull on it you can see the x axis bars flex. It is in the weakest position when mid x axis and sags a little there under its own weight. In the past Tim has cautioned about adding extra weight to the router area when folks were talking about dust collectors and hoses, as that would have exacerbated the issue.
If you were cutting thin material and had a milled top vacuum table to pull it down tight, it might be workable, but it's still not right. So in the case of a non linear machine, the shaved table top approach does not work because it is not straight and even, and the work placed on it will bridge the low spots and no longer be following the bit path.
The pro hd should help that a lot, as it has the supported style linear bearings (that I had to retrofit to my pro).
They do make a big difference.
While that does not solve your immediate problem, it helps to explain what I believe your core issue may be, so you don't chase any wild geese.
For many users it does not seem to have been an issue. For me it was, and I had to solve it on my own. Hopefully NWA will come up with a reasonable retrofit for your machine. At the small premium in price the HD brings over the pro plus, I would imagine most new sales will be the HD if people are aware of the issue. It would have been a no-brainer for me had it existed two years ago.
Seeing that retrofits would only be done to existing machines for existing customers, I hope NWA will consider that in their pricing of whatever solution they offer, as many parts will be discarded and replaced in the upgrade.
I hope this helps. ( been there, I feel your pain).
Bob
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
See also this discussion. A number of people (including myself) have replaced the plastic strips that support the aluminum extrusions with metal angles or tubing that is much straighter and stiffer.
http://www.cncsharktalk.com/viewtopic.p ... 0&start=10
http://www.cncsharktalk.com/viewtopic.p ... 0&start=10
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
Here is a You Tube video on this very subject: CNC Shark Gripes
John
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
I have see that video and I think he is addressing the bow in the table, which is an issue in itself.
Johnnypingpong has most likely overcome that with a slab of 2" material which he milled down. It should be stiff, but ends up not "flat" after milling..
The second problem is flex, which the video does not address. The gentleman in the video will be having problems with this, and it will be made worse by the big dust shoe he hung off the front. ( I have the same shoe and it is quite good, just not on a machine that is not Hd stiffness.) He just hasn't realized that the router does not travel perfectly straight as it moves across. I think we all just assume that till we check it. I did. He got the obvious bad table solved, and now it may be "close enough" for what he needs.
If you need +- .002 at any place in the table , you need both issues solved. (table flatness and machine flex.)
Tool forces from aggressive cuts in material only make the flex even worse. For some 3d carving, you may not notice it at all.
A thin line cut with a 45 degree v bit is a good test. It should be the same thickness wherever on the table it is being cut.
bob
Johnnypingpong has most likely overcome that with a slab of 2" material which he milled down. It should be stiff, but ends up not "flat" after milling..
The second problem is flex, which the video does not address. The gentleman in the video will be having problems with this, and it will be made worse by the big dust shoe he hung off the front. ( I have the same shoe and it is quite good, just not on a machine that is not Hd stiffness.) He just hasn't realized that the router does not travel perfectly straight as it moves across. I think we all just assume that till we check it. I did. He got the obvious bad table solved, and now it may be "close enough" for what he needs.
If you need +- .002 at any place in the table , you need both issues solved. (table flatness and machine flex.)
Tool forces from aggressive cuts in material only make the flex even worse. For some 3d carving, you may not notice it at all.
A thin line cut with a 45 degree v bit is a good test. It should be the same thickness wherever on the table it is being cut.
bob
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
Good points, Bob. I'll be anxious to see how my HD checks out.
.
.
John
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
Hi all..
It is a shame that a system totalling over $4000.00 comes from a company that hasn't addressed this issue as I have seen. Granted there are systems out there that cost more, however I don't believe that with all the complaints about table flatness, (not only the Shark pro plus, but the pro as well) it has been left up to the enduser to correct the problem. I am sorry but I don't think this is a good business practice. The Shark pro plus is a remarkable system, but as with other products which cost thousands of dollars, most companies will retool, repair and send the solution part/s to the enduser, it is like a recall in the automobile industry. But where is the fix?? I don't know about the finances of the good people of this forum, but I myself being disabled don't have the money to try and repair a product that should have gone through a thorough quality control program before being sold. I don't want to offend, or be little anyone, but there are just too many complaints that I feel are falling on deaf ears at Next wave, and Rockler. Please show me I am wrong.. Is anybody out there listening??
Thanks for letting me rant.
It is a shame that a system totalling over $4000.00 comes from a company that hasn't addressed this issue as I have seen. Granted there are systems out there that cost more, however I don't believe that with all the complaints about table flatness, (not only the Shark pro plus, but the pro as well) it has been left up to the enduser to correct the problem. I am sorry but I don't think this is a good business practice. The Shark pro plus is a remarkable system, but as with other products which cost thousands of dollars, most companies will retool, repair and send the solution part/s to the enduser, it is like a recall in the automobile industry. But where is the fix?? I don't know about the finances of the good people of this forum, but I myself being disabled don't have the money to try and repair a product that should have gone through a thorough quality control program before being sold. I don't want to offend, or be little anyone, but there are just too many complaints that I feel are falling on deaf ears at Next wave, and Rockler. Please show me I am wrong.. Is anybody out there listening??
Thanks for letting me rant.
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
If you read the post above that FixitMike references, you can learn about the limitations of the table flatness.
Basically due to flex of the components, better than .025 inch over the entire table is not physically possible, I did the calculations. But that limit is to the entire table. If you're cutting something that is 1 foot square, you will get much better flatness in that area.
The biggest change that Next Wave should make is to replace the plastic end supports that the aluminum slats are bolted to. On my machine it looked like mass production influenced an overzealous assembler with too much torque in their driver. Those plastic supports we're severely deformed from overtightening including the two Bolts on each end that hold them to the frame. This is what I replaced as well as others and it didn't seem to be a large cost increase to have used the aluminum square over the plastic bar like I did. It was a bear to get apart though because the bolts had dug in pretty well to that bar. Now I can easily remove the aluminum slats as when I need to lubricate the Y screw or guides.
Overall I still think Next Wave can make that table mass produced with a .040" flatness as stated in the above post.
I enjoyed reworking my machine and using it, but you're right, a few simple low cost adjustments would make this a much better machine out of the box and rework free.
Basically due to flex of the components, better than .025 inch over the entire table is not physically possible, I did the calculations. But that limit is to the entire table. If you're cutting something that is 1 foot square, you will get much better flatness in that area.
The biggest change that Next Wave should make is to replace the plastic end supports that the aluminum slats are bolted to. On my machine it looked like mass production influenced an overzealous assembler with too much torque in their driver. Those plastic supports we're severely deformed from overtightening including the two Bolts on each end that hold them to the frame. This is what I replaced as well as others and it didn't seem to be a large cost increase to have used the aluminum square over the plastic bar like I did. It was a bear to get apart though because the bolts had dug in pretty well to that bar. Now I can easily remove the aluminum slats as when I need to lubricate the Y screw or guides.
Overall I still think Next Wave can make that table mass produced with a .040" flatness as stated in the above post.
I enjoyed reworking my machine and using it, but you're right, a few simple low cost adjustments would make this a much better machine out of the box and rework free.
Re: level cuts? can it be done?
Thanks BillK for explaining that to me. I have read so many posts concerning the flatness of the table in the last month I am going cockeyed. You see, I am in a wheelchair and can't get around to fix this problem, and my friends are willing to help, but I just feel it is a shame that plastic has to play a part in what should be a precision machine. Lets face it, if you are connected to a computer, then your limitations should be endless concerning quality work and not have to worry about how much kindling you just made because a manufacturer added plastic parts that should only be relagated to tupper ware. (tm). My question to Tim, and Al, would be, "Why doesn't anyone send parts to fix what is obviously an engineering failure"? I love my machine, but shouldn't have to re-engineer it. I don't mean to say anything bad about anyone or their company, but there are just too many posts out there with the same problem that I would think could and would be addressed by someone in the know. The Shark Pro Plus is not a sub-standard machine, but should be a usable machine without having to repair it. That's like buying a car and having to do body work on it right off the show room floor.
At any rate, my rant will proably get me kick off this forum, but I still think somebody should speak up. In this country, our politicians are trying to take all our money, I just don't have much left to fix something that should have never left the factory until it was thoroughly tested. No sense in having a 25 x 25 working area if you can only use 12" of it. I think I paid for more than that. You did too. At any rate, thank you so much for responding and have a very Merry Christmas.
At any rate, my rant will proably get me kick off this forum, but I still think somebody should speak up. In this country, our politicians are trying to take all our money, I just don't have much left to fix something that should have never left the factory until it was thoroughly tested. No sense in having a 25 x 25 working area if you can only use 12" of it. I think I paid for more than that. You did too. At any rate, thank you so much for responding and have a very Merry Christmas.