Spindle For Shark Available

Discussion about the CNC Shark Pro Plus HD

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Glug
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:10 am

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by Glug »

I did the spindle thing on my Shark. I spent goofy amounts of time researching my decisions. You know the story! It went pretty well. Some notes follow.

First, I've had it with all the junk routers. I measured many new Bosch 1617's and the tolerances on them these days is poor. Emails to Bosch were completely ignored.
Same for those porter cables (which I find are much louder than the 1617).. I also measured a Hitachi. I have a few 20 year old routers that measure great. Precise Bits makes a wonderful product but it doesn't solve the collet socket issues. Though perhaps I could have touched up the bore using a diamond file, as many have done with the Bosch Colt.

I have a 2.2KW water cooled chinese spindle on my Shark HD. The weight and size of these units vary. the quality and bearings also vary. I wanted an ER20 collet for the versatility - mostly to accept 1/2" shank bits for surfacing spoil boards, and certain operations where I need that. I did not need the larger spindle for the power, etc. For most of what I do a smaller spindle would have been better. If you put too much spindle weight on a shark, it gets a bit 'bouncy' along the Y axis. Someone really needs to do a lighter spindle with the ER20 collet.

Some spindles, like mine, are about 12 lbs. Others closer to 7, which is more comparable to a router. A bosch 1617 is a little over 7 lbs. The Shark struggles with a 12 lbs spindle - the Y-axis moves tend to be less stable when stopping and stating moves. When I park the unit after using it, I rest the weight of the spindle on a block of wood.

My first spindle came from a US supplier. I paid about $220 shipped. The runout was okay, but it did not meet the advertised spec. It was not much better than a router, and I returned it. I wanted to exchange it but they didn't want to do that. It is worth mentioning that measuring spindle runout - offset vs. skew - is not at all a trivial process. And if you think you can do it, then you should be able to reproduce your results. That is the real test - can you duplicate your measurements.

My second spindle came from China - direct, with payment via paypal. That was a risk, but it went fine. The seller was someone with a good reputation and who has dealt with many folks. Still, it was a risk..

Price was similar, about $235 shipped. It was the same model, most likely (I say most likely because you just never know - there is so much copying of logos, etc). That spindle measured somewhat better (less offset, but a hint of skew).. Though when you really get into runout, and skew vs. offset, it is not something that is easily explained. There are tradeoffs. A spindle with skew can measure perfectly in one spot but not another.

Ultimately, if I want less runout, I will have my spindle re-machined, or re-machine it myself. Up until about a year ago we had a great grinding shop just 12 minutes up the road. They had the perfect machine for this task and it likely would have been fairly inexpensive for them to do the work. Unfortuantely they closed. I did get some good stuff from the auction. I am using a set of imported Shars collets I bought on Ebay. They are reasonably priced and those I measured were fairly true.

I use a hitachi X200 VFD to control my spindle, bought used on ebay for $150 (it was a very good buy, the 2.2KW units don't seem to come up often). It is a very nice unit. The Hitachi is incredibly well engineered. Most folks suggest buying a quality VFD vs. one of the generic imports from ebay. Though I read the generics have improved in recent years.

Configuring and tuning the VFD parameters could be a real challenge for some. Programming the settings in, and just running it without understanding any of it, is definitely possible. There are quite a few posts with suggested settings. I use Igus shielded VFD cable from the VFD to the spindle. This is a special shielded cable. It is important to shield the cable, and likely VFD, to prevent interference with the steppers. Igus ships quickly and their prices are very reasonable. The cable is very flexible and well made. You will likely have a lot of difficulty finding an appropriate cable locally, and most other places require large minimum orders.

I had to add a ground wire on the spindle. That involves removing the cable, crimping an end on a wire and soldering it to the spindle connector. This is important for safety and many folks have to do this. You need a 4 pin connector on the spindle to do this. Some spindles still come with 3 pin connectors, creating a bit of a headache. Some show a 3 pin in the ad but come with a 4 pin.

These spindles are disposable. I read that you can get a lot of life out of them, but if they need bearing service, you basically toss them. Bearings are expensive and the labor and skill required to disassemble and replace the bearings is Substantial. Special tools are required and probably need to be custom made to fit this application. You can do the searches and see the process for yourself. For this reason I would not pay much for these Chinese spindles. They are a commodity.

For some odd reason the US sellers on ebay are trying to get over $1000 for these spindles at the moment. I'd guess that they are out of stock and don't want to take their listings down. Most of the US ebay sellers are all fronts for the same corporation, I think.

I use a very small reservoir with my spindle - less than a gallon. Maybe in summer, for version 2.0, I'll need to do something larger. I use Green prestone anti-freeze, with distilled water. It is less toxic. Not all anti-freeze is the same. Some have silica additives to plug leaks. You really don't want that. If there is any internal leakage into the bearings, the silica could cause serious problems. I also use a small ebay aquarium heater to keep the reservoir at a reasonable min temp of about 75F.

Good spindles require that you break-in the bearings. Much of that process involves the heat distributing the grease. It is also advised that you warm up the bearings before high rpm use. These are a larger diameter bearing than most routers. I warm mine up for a couple-few minutes at 6000, 12000, 16000, and 20000. The somewhat warm water from the aquarium heater also helps and I of course circulate the for a few minutes first.

I made my own router mount out of 3/4" plywood. Thanks much to Rugenmach for posting the pattern! It is actually 6 or 7 sheets sandwiched together with 5/16" stud material. I had thought I would make a bracket to attach the studs above the mounts to the Shark to further increase rigidity, but I don't see the need.. The tubular router body is very stiff, and when you sandwich all of that together with the studs and all that plywood... I don't see the need. There are far more important areas to beef up. The smooth spindle body is also nice in how it is easily moved up and down in the mount. Though though adjusting 6 or 7 clamp bolts is to be avoided! Fortunately I don't need to do that.

Compared to a router, these things run smooooth. No comparison. Not even close. If you put your finger on that spindle body when it is turning 20K rpm, I'm sure you'd say "Wow!"

I still wear ear plugs. The spindle is very quiet but there is a high frequency component thaT I think requires protection.

Hope this helps!

zstat
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:11 pm

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by zstat »

I received the 2 spindle brackets today... 2 pieces of plastic 3/4 inches thick... 1 for the top and another for the bottom of the router mount... The T27 bolts are too short and if I did not have the vacuum hookup on mine (60th anniversary) the bolts would not have worked at all.. However with the 2 brackets the vacuum adapter will not work. I will have to find some that are 3 1/2 in. long bolts to use it. I still have received no interface mentioned on their web site, to work with the controller... I have 0 literature on set up and installation... Not how much water to use. Not anything about how to control the speed of the spindle. I asked for information last week when they failed to send the brackets if they could send me some set up and usage info... Got nothing...
At this point I am considering sending the whole thing back... Very poor customer service...

EdThorne
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:26 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by EdThorne »

Hi Zstat
Any new developments today?
Ed

zstat
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:11 pm

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by zstat »

I spoke with Tim today @ NWA. He apologized for any issues I have had and assured me that it would all be taken care of... He said there is suppose to be some instructions in the box on set up and maintaining the spindle. He gave me a name of a specialist at NWA to call if I have questions.
Tim also said the inverter is all set up to run (Pre Programed) and that they are running the water pumps in 5 gallon buckets at length with no failures. He also said that since I bought it rom them if a part fails they will take care of it... As far as the length of the T-27 bolts he never mentioned
if they were suppose to be included. He said for the time being they just plug the spindle in and control it thru the inverter, But they are working on a interface for their module. So when a piece is complete it would turn itself off like a router.

Tim seemed like a nice person and was concerned about my issues. I feel a little better about the purchase.

EdThorne
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:26 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by EdThorne »

I'm pleased to hear that Tim is following up with you to get the issues resolved. I hope that they get you up and running soon. So it sounds that the spindle isn't turned on and off like a router presently operates. This isn't obvious from the advertisement on their website. It sound like another future option. I suppose that this will be at an additional cost. I'm going to watch the reviews to see when these issues get resolved before planning a purchase.
Ed

zstat
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:11 pm

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by zstat »

I have been working on my spindle. I have my water container with a flow indicator. I mounted a switched electrical box on the side of my table to I am not having to plug in the spindle and water system overtime I want to work... Now I just have to remember to turn it on before I start the program... I am posting a few pictures.
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EdThorne
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:26 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by EdThorne »

Looks terrific. It's great to hear that your spindle is up and running. I'm not sure that I would benefit from using one but maybe my needs will change.
Ed

studio-n
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:25 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by studio-n »

Hello Zstat,
any follow-ups on the spindle. How's that working for you?
"Out of my mind.....back in 5 minutes"
Rockler 60th Anniversary CNC Shark
w/digital probe, and 4th axis attachment.
ULS M300 Laser Engraver 50 Watt
Aspire and Corel Draw
NextEngine 2020i 3D scanner

zstat
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:11 pm

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by zstat »

Hi Studio-n
I have had no issues with the spindle since completing up the water cooling system. Its very quiet. My main issue is the run time on some of the carvings is very lengthy and with out an auto shut down like the router, makes for no over night carves...

rungemach
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am
Location: Sarasota, Florida

Re: Spindle For Shark Available

Post by rungemach »

Hi Zstat

I like your flow indicator, is it a Wilger flow ball unit?

I have found that its important to try and prevent algae from growing in your cooling water, and sealing the system as much as possible helps.
I'm considering going with a cooling fluid setup in the future if the issue proves troublesome. The Chinese spindles can get plugged up pretty easily by contaminants in the water, hence the flow valve so you can keep an eye on it.

It sounds like you are still missing, instructions, correctly sized long bolts, and an interface. I also notice that any mention of the router being controlled by the Shark is no longer mentioned on the web site. I hope that this "feature" is not just dropped.

Controlling the Chinese Huanyang converter from external switches (or relays) is not that big of a deal and IMHO should have been worked out prior to the units being sold. A simple relay driven by the control box's router power outlet would do the trick. Also, it should be possible to set your unit to display router RPM inserted of power frequency. I find the actual rpm readout more useable. That is all changed via software parameters and could be easily set that way during checkout at NWA.

I imagine NWA is busy with their Kickstarter campaign which mentions units to be available in July. Since those units are routers, digitizers, laser engravers, and 3d printers, the need for support for those users will ramp up as new customers get their units and have questions. So it would seem they have a lot on their plate. I don't know whether this forum will be a place for those issues as the units do not seem to be connected to Rockler.

I hope your issues get resolved in a reasonable amount of time.

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