Shark vs. Carvewright (CW)

[JWBosworth]

Boy, am I in a quandary. I'm a Luthier who has made stringed instruments for a few years now - all by hand but with the help of some serious power tools. I now have an opportunity to supply a large number of cigar box ukulele to a tobacco store chain in NYC. So I'm looking into small CNC carvers to help me "mass" produce items such as necks and engrave logos on headstocks and soundboards. i have read reviews until I'm blue in the face about CNC Shark and CW. i see merits in both. CW does have a lot of negative comments that are 'supposedly' rectified by their new "C" model.

The price between the CNCShark and the CW isn't all that much different. So I need some honest opinions from those of you out there who have tried both of these machines. In some ways, the CW has too many limits (relatively small workpiece), the workpiece moves (introduces errors), proprietary bits, 'easy to use' software (but too easy with few adjustment features), history of mechanical issues, etc. The Shark has more capacity, have to buy a router additional, workpiece doesn't move (good thing), capable software (but really hard to learn), relatively inexpensive add-on software (Cut-3D), etc.

I really like the CW software as a beginner to this activity but I also like the more professional software bundled with the Shark - I just haven't been able to figure it out just yet.

As I said above, can anyone give me reasons one way or the other as to which system is going to meet my needs now and into the future?

Thanks,
Jeff
http://jwbosworthguitars.com

[kghinsr]

Jeff
I also looked at a CW before I bought the shark
I was not in favor of the software that came with the CW
it was to limited for the woodwork I do
also did NOT like the fact that the wood went back and forth in the machine
with the shark the gantry moves and you can position the wood where you want it and cut
So the software has a learning curve but they all do to some extent
once you have the program done its easy after that
locate one in your area and go see how they work or you can come to see mine
I now have two of them
ken

[JWBosworth]

Thanks, Ken.

I'm aware of all you state. I guess my question is whether the 'C' version of the CW is, in fact, improved - eliminating most of the negatives people had. The one thing I kept hearing over and over was that the machine would do a few carvings and then simply quit, requiring the owner to ship it back to the mfg. and wait - sometimes months.

CW now has a 'sale' that includes the heavy duty belts that replace the sandpaper platen that moves the workpiece. This supposedly allows for higher accuracy despite the platen/workpiece moving. Well, maybe...

Software: I'm very computer savvy (I teach computer programming at the Univ. of Cincinnati) so I'm not afraid to play with menu items and buttons in an app. I downloaded the trial versions of the included software for each machine. Then I imported an image of my logo into each. The CW software rendered it much better than the Shark (VCarve Pro) software. But then it became a frustrating effort with both of the applications to get the logo to cut just right. The more I played with settings on the VCarve app, the worse it got. For some reason, even starting at what I thought was z=0 and with a very shallow depth of cut, the VCarve wanted to carve the area around the logo below the surface of the workpiece. The CW attempt at least started from the top surface of the workpiece.

I do realize that the Shark is a superior machine (though it irritates me that for the price it doesn't come with a router). However, on that point, can I assume that the Shark will accept any router? I have several very nice laminate trimmers in my shop that could fit the bill. But I don't want to get into a mounting hassle. I guess if it's set up for the Bosch, I may as well bite the bullet and buy one just to avoid any jerry-rigging of the mount.

I'm beginning to suspect that my decision is being clouded by the software not the machine per se. I do like that teh Shark can be fed by a number of different software apps that output the right file formats. But I also read that VCarve wil let you do this block of things, but if you want to do this other block of things you need Cut3D, but you can't do that other thing in Cut3D so you have to import it into this or that. Arrgh!

[jeb2cav]

Hi Jeff,

I chose a Shark - and am not a salesman, and while I'm glad that a few new folks have gotten an extremely good turn-around and seem to think that it's all roses here (to be clear, I agree that Next Wave has made significant strides forward in support), it was in my opinion that the Shark and the software package as a system was the best CNC for the price (Nov 10). It seems like you've figured out similar aspects. I can't speak to the C model of the CW - I didn't spend much time looking at the CW after an initial pass.

The software is not difficult, and that frankly is a plus. The tutorials Vectric provides don't take much time and they really help get you started. It is worth spending the time to go through them. I haven't seen such tutorial/training support in my many years of software/systems for what it's worth. Their manual is well written and readily available while using the software as well. And then you can combine that with this and the Vectric forum, and off you go.

I can see how you might've been discouraged with the v-carve toolpath on your logo. There are some other posts on this, but until you understand how the v-carve toolpath deterines its path, it is not unusual to get a cut through the material result. I spent over an hour at one point stroking buttons and settings and scratching my head, before I started the tutorial process, and then read the 1 page worth of info in the manual - and then I understood exactly why this happened. I wouldn't be discouraged by that.

I went to your website, downloaded the gif file (your banner) - which of course is very low resolution, and spent about 15 minutes cleaning it up a little in photoshop, then a quick VCarve Pro project. Here's what I was able to get in that 15 minutes

Logo from Low Res gif

Logo from Low Res gif - ISO View

If I had your original art, or even better the original art in EPS form, and knew what fonts you used for the lettering, all the jagged stuff would go away. These are all artifacts from using the gif as the source image. If I had your original art and built this in Aspire, it would have had curvy letters and other frills in 15-30 minutes.

VCarve Pro and Cut3D comes with the ProPlus. This gives you a fairly robust 2.5D capability. Many folks on this forum have in fact upgraded their software to the Aspire product (also from Vectric). I recall at least one user who was purchasing a Shark for stringed instrument work choosing that path. But that is something you can decide to do at any point - you don't have to do that at time of purchase. If you're looking to start with some straight forward 2D carving, VCarve should meet your requirements. If you want to start creating your own ukulele and guitar necks/other parts, you may find that Aspire makes it easier to do.

Again, I haven't looked back at the CW. Many folks appear to be using the Shark for production like work - within the limits of the router's ability to cut at even the maximum inch per minute movement the shark cnc gantry can deliver. The next step up I think is $12-14K.

Hope this helps.

[Phil B]

Just in looking at your web page I think it’s a pretty easy call to say that the CW will not fulfill your needs long term, you need a “real” cnc router with good tool path control. I think it’s too much of a leap of faith to go with a system that has “supposedly” improved to the point of reliable use.

In large part, you are correct in that software has a very large impact in what you are able to produce. That s/w is half of the system, the other is the cnc platform. If the cnc platform isn’t very reliable, it’s a boat anchor.

I will point this out also. Raster to vector conversions in this level of software is not that great. The vetric software is pretty easy to use but it’s not reasonable to expect it to deliver very smooth results in a raster to vector conversion. It has it’s place but it isn’t always good enough. If you want smooth vectors, you often need to make them; either in real cad software or vetric itself.

I was able to remaster your logo in cad in 14 minutes and when used in vcarve I get a very smooth cut. If you try to convert to vectors from a bitmap, you get what Joe shows. If you use a higher res image it gets less jaggy but it doesn’t totally go away. Just because a file is eps doesn’t mean it’s smooth either, it depends on the vectors itself. I’ve seen plenty of illustrator files that are not smooth or geometrically pure enough to use. Depending on how large the cut is, it can make a difference.

PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com

[JWBosworth]

Thanks very much everyone...

I have to admit that I did NOT go thru the tutorials for either software app (RTIS - read the instructions, stupid ). I need to do that - when I find the time. I just jumped in and started pressing buttons.

I have a nice CAD app by Alibre. It's a "personal" edition so the only output I can see is STL. And, again, I haven't done my homework to see if VCarve or Cut3D can import STL files and do anything with them. I'm sorry to be so ignorant on all this but I'm just getting started and trying to get educated. CAD has always been a steep learning curve for me even though I have spent years developing software commercially. It just wasn't CAD software...

What I had done with my logo was first convert it to B&W and did a little editing to remove the fuzzies. It turned out much like the images I see here.

I do like that the Shark is not confined to a proprietary set of bits like the CW. I hate being locked into that kind of thing. And I like the capacity that is simply not there with the CW. If the router dies, you just replace it by running to Lowe's.

Again, thanks to everyone for the input. I think my mind is made up. So likely I will be lurking on this site for a long time to come...

[Haltex]

I also have the Alibre softwear yes Vcarve 3D dose use the STL files. Me and Alibre did not click together I did't like being restrided to the STL format so I went one farther and bought the BobCad Cam it is user freindly and handles all kinds of formats, on top of that the CAM or graghics to of the same is great it is a good softwear on top of that I got 6000 DXF graphic, line drawing with it from insects to 34 coup but yes I am getting along pretty good with BobCad. I have been working on emboss and 3D graghics its a little different but working thru it Ok. Hal